Why People Talk About Embedded Finance, with Spiros Margaris | Ep. 72

Episode 72

No. 1 global fintech influencer and venture capitalist, Spiros Margaris, speaks about his honest opinions on the future of financial technology.

Episode 72


Episode Summary

A true legacy.

While the cutting-edge technology that fintech services provide is increasingly useful, they will not mold the legacy of fintech and what actually matters to consumers. Instead, their core problem-solving solutions, which improve everybody’s quality of life, are where the true value of fintech lies - helping to make every day easier. Whether in banking, retail, or any industry, companies must strive to place this approach at the forefront of their fintech practices, so that the most important goal – customer satisfaction – can be prioritized effectively.

Technology is like cooking.

Throughout the episode, Spiros draws several parallels between the innovations that tech companies are constantly making, and cooking. Here are the 3 key takeaways from his similes:

  • same ingredients, different recipes - an industry’s environment and existing solutions provide the ingredients to mix, stir, bake or cook up a new product or service, often creating surprising combinations.
  • endless potential - although many social media platforms exist, TikTok bloomed and dominated the industry because it provided a new take on an existing user experience; it mixed the ingredients differently.
  • being content can halt progress - when you’re given a nice meal, it can be easy not to think about cooking because it has already been done for you. But to cause true creative disruption, companies have to actively be in the kitchen, assembling new recipes.

What organizations can learn from parents.

In order for companies to grow, they must first experience failure, so they can learn from their own mistakes and apply that knowledge to future attempts. Spiros likens this process to a child learning to walk and run. At first, they might fall over, but the parent cannot stop it from happening, otherwise, the child would never learn where they went wrong. Likewise, to witness real growth, especially in the field of tech, companies must try and try again before the experimentation can pay off.

This article summarises podcast episode 72 ”Why People Talk About Embedded Finance" recorded by CX Insider. For more information, listen to the episode, or contact Spiros on his LinkedIn profile.

Written by Marcell Debreceni



Full episode transcript

Spiros: An interesting thing for people who don't know, with Amazon Fresh, you go in and you buy things and you don't have to use cash, and you can come out again. But that's one concept, you get different ones. In America, San Francisco, and New York, they passed a law that forced Amazon to have a cashier, regardless of the frictionless experience - rightfully, because there are some people who don't have credit cards; they should be able to go shop there as well. The older you get, the more you have to become, I mean, at any time, conscious of less privileged people that need to also have access to the same things we have, you know? Things we take for granted.

Valentina: Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of CX Insider. In today's episode, I am joined by my colleague Alex for the first time and we are talking to Spiros Margaris, who is a global number one fintech A.I. and blockchain influencer. We will talk about embedded finance, the future of cash and fintech, and why you should let your children be bored. I hope you'll enjoy this episode. And if you do, please don't forget to let us know on our LinkedIn page. By the way, this podcast was brought to you by ACF Technologies, the global leader in Customer Experience Management Solutions. Spiros is a venture capitalist, founder of Margaris Ventures, board member, and senior advisor based in Switzerland. As a keynote speaker and futurist influencing thousands of people, he always aims to have a balanced perspective on things today. Spiros, Alex, and I talk about his views on embedded finance and the future of banking. But first, let's start with an introduction.

Spiros: I'm in the business of investing in fintech start-ups and in different start-ups globally. Originally I was born in Switzerland. I'll make this short, I lived in America for over 15 years and now I'm back in Switzerland again. And basically, by accident, I moved into the fintech space at the very beginning of 2014. Through investments and association with certain fintech companies, I grew with the market. And I was fortunate enough to grow with a great community and became an influencer from day one. But that's just a side product of my main business of investing in start-ups, and I was lucky enough to have some good, good investments and good associations with great start-ups. Two of them became unicorns, valuation of over $1 billion. That helps their reputation. But in the end, it's a community thing. And I've been number one for a long time in the fintech space and A.I., all these things, cybersecurity, etc. They are all part of this because I mean, you can't be a great fintech company without deploying AI or all kinds of technologies. And my main job is investing. I do some speaking engagements and share the things I read about that interest me.

Spiros: I even share things that I don't agree with. I always say it doesn't matter because it doesn't mean I have to agree or not. I might be wrong, so that opinion might be right. So it's good to read not only the opinions you like but also opinions that maybe have some points that are different from your view. And this way you stay a little bit balanced. And my main job is also advisory boards or boards and advising CEOs or the management on where the trends are going. The way I see those start-ups should develop, that doesn't mean they have to listen to me. But I'm fortunate enough that I can speak to them and work with great people. But originally, I came from the hedge fund industry. I've been in asset management all my life. I own start-ups in New York. I had my own failures. So I know both sides, I don't only know the bright side of life, like most of us, and that helps you to be credible and that helps you to foresee certain things maybe.

Valentina: I'm guessing most of you have heard of things like Buy Now Pay Later, invisible payments, and checkout-free in-store shopping. The trend of embedded finance is growing rapidly, according to Oracle. In the next ten years, the value of the embedded finance market is expected to exceed $7 trillion, and many people are guessing whether embedded finance is a threat to traditional banking. So let's break it down. What exactly is embedded finance?

Spiros: Embedded finance is just part of fintech. Fintech for people who don't know is financial technology. And that's basically where finance and the customer interact directly or indirectly. And with finance, it will be done through technology and fintech companies, either as a challenger bank like Monzo, Starling, or any other bank in America or Asia or behind the scene, which provide technology for all the banks, or not even banks, to allow customers to send money, remittances, etc. That's fintech. I mean, it's very broad from wealth tech, etc. and better finance is part of it. That's why I started with fintech - financial technology. And usually, the goal is obviously the B2C market, business-to-consumer, to provide cheaper, better financial solutions, solutions for people who didn't have, for instance, a credit card before, or for instance, to give a nice example in India through fintech, where a lot of women who were not privileged enough to go to banks and open bank accounts, could open bank accounts through the Internet. It was usually the boys that were taken to the banks. So it empowered women in India. It empowers people in other countries where they didn't have credit cards, no banking services, things we take for granted. That's fintech. I mean, in a nutshell, better finance is part of fintech, basically non-financial companies like Walmart or Volkswagen, just companies that have nothing to do with finance directly. They sell shoes. It's a retailer, but they have a huge customer base. They realize something a lot of us realize that's a trend that's going to last for a long time. They realized that they can provide their own financial services through fintech to the customers. So basically they have the customers that they sell milk or they sell whatever to, they sell cars.

Spiros: And so [they think] let's also sell them insurance, and they can through technology. They can do things that before they had to work with a specific bank that provided a service or insurance. So now they can embed it within a business model, like added value. And for instance, sometimes you have customers like Walmart, etc. that are not served by traditional financial institutions, but you like to have them for economic, whatever reasons, obviously. So Walmart built their own fintech solutions in order to provide those people with credit cards, for instance, etc., so they can shop within the shop, you know, in a way that they're valuable, they're creditworthy for them, but maybe not creditworthy for others. As an example, or, as I said before, a car manufacturer that says, why do we not provide our own loans or insurance? So anyone who has a lot of customers can add fintech solutions within their offerings. And the interesting part about this is, that they don't really have to make money with this, because they have a core business and will make money if they want to. But it's not their priority. I mean, of course, it is always part of the economic priority of business to make money. But for a bank the financial instruments and the solutions they provide, that's a business. But if you are a huge supermarket, your business is to sell milk, meat, cornflakes, you know, you name it. And in addition, you can provide cheap loans or cheap credit cards or whatever. That's just to attract more customers.

Valentina: Let's look at a timeline of these technologies. Understandably, fintech was not an overnight success, and innovation always needs good timing and the right circumstances to emerge.

Spiros: Financial technology always existed in some ways. Obviously, the ATM machine is a fintech solution. But in 2014, a little before the phrase fintech was coined, as what it is now, as a brand, and as those companies grew, start-ups like Stripe, Clown, Buy Now Pay Later, etc. It enabled them not only to do business for some B2C companies for themselves but the other companies that provided these solutions to banks, to anyone. So as the industry grew, people became more innovative in using those tools. Is it like, before it didn't exist? Like ten years ago you couldn't imagine having your own digital bank or providing these kinds of services. Or like Square. Square's a great solution, which is called BLOCK Now. Jack Dorsey, who also founded Twitter, founded Square. So what did Square do as an example? There were artists on the street, etc., that could not do credit card transactions. In the old days. I mean, you know, time flies. So basically anyone with a smartphone could at that time just take something on his smartphone and then basically allow the customer, an artist on the street, to pay with a credit card, you know? Where before you needed a shop, and you needed a MasterCard, a point of sales. And now all of a sudden, as one innovative solution, Square, allowed smaller retailers Very simple elegant solutions to allow their customers to pay with credit cards. So that's why I always tell people we're just at the beginning because what we've experienced so far is the low-hanging fruits. So things that the big banks should have done, start-ups did.

Spiros: But as you have more solutions out there, there come young kids, it doesn't matter what age, who think "Oh. With this and that I can do much more". You know? I always say it's like a cake. Cake has different ingredients. Sugar, etc. But it always comes out differently. Depends on who does it. It's like cooking, and the industry is like ingredients, salt, sugar, etc. and everyone can make a different cake. And that's where the solutions come up, you know, they see, for instance, Amazon, which provides a lot of fintech solutions to its customers from lending, cash management, insurance, etc. So if you look around and say, oh, maybe we should do this too, or maybe we should do this and some additional things. You know, you can mix all these innovations in any way you see fit. I mean, that's why restaurants exist. I mean, we go to restaurants we love, but there's always a new restaurant coming up that maybe does things differently. Maybe. But it's not even technology. It may be a better customer experience and a better atmosphere. That's the same with companies. It will never stop. There will always be somebody who comes up with something we didn't see coming. For instance, look at TikTok. We had YouTube and a lot of social media, but TikTok came and invented something that made the whole thing feel new, and it attracted many people. It's really like baking a cake, and everyone bakes it differently. And all this technology, Internet of Things, A.I., you name it, helps you, depending on your skills, to produce something different.

Alex: So you think over time, we will have some established way of doing things, of purchasing through these different operators and service providers? Or do you think it will always be changing and always specific, let's say, providers, doing their own thing, or will they unify in any way?

Spiros: I think that's a very good question. Two answers. I hope, yes, that it will change constantly, because it would be kind of sad, at least for me. And boring. And I think there will be always a better way of doing things because when we look back, some things are so old-fashioned. You know, look at the research. I mean, Google is dominating now, but eventually, it's not going to be dominating anymore, very clearly because the smartphone will be the gatekeeper of which search engines you will use, you know? So basically things always change. Not against Google, but it's just that life always changes. Anything that's once been dominating and you thought 'it can never change. But all of a sudden? Changed. And that's magical. I think there's no technology that will last forever. I mean, it can't be, because I get bored and new people get bored too, and they think, "Oh, maybe we can do it differently". And I think that's nature. And some people want just something different, even if it's good.

Valentina: Have you ever been to an Amazon Fresh Store? It's a contactless shop where customers take items and leave without scanning them. They don't need to interact with anyone or use a till. Overall, it's a very convenient, seamless, and cashless experience.

Spiros: An interesting thing for people who don't know, with Amazon Fresh, you go in and you buy things and you don't have to use cash, and you can come out again. But that's one concept in the UK, there are different ones. In America, San Francisco, and New York, passed a law that forced Amazon to have a cashier, regardless of the frictionless experience - rightfully, because there are some people who don't have credit cards; they should be able to go shop there as well. The older you get, the more you have to become, I mean, at any time, conscious of less privileged people that need to also have access to the same things we have, you know? Things we take for granted.

Valentina: In the UK, cash payments have been falling by around 15% every year. In 2020, the pandemic accelerated this process to 35%. It is evident we are heading toward a cashless society. However, there are still over 80 million adults relying on cash payments in the UK every day. And on top of that, there are also practical reasons why people use cash.

Spiros: I'm an extreme proponent of cash. It gives you privacy. You know, if everything would be digital, they would know everything. There was in China natural catastrophe. And for weeks they didn't have electricity. Those people would never be without cash. You know, we take things for granted. Who foresaw things like war, etc.? We might be without electricity. How will you pay? You know you take things for granted which are not necessarily always there. So I think I hate solutions that are one-sided. I mean, I'm for electric cars, but I'm also a motorhead. You know, because we might not have electricity all the time. It's like life. Life is not about one solution. It's like a relationship. It's about compromise. It's about having different aspects. If we only have one thing, it's a bad thing because we're very dependent. So I'm not for a cashless society, although it's coming, but I think it would be smart to leave cash still in the equation. But, you know, like in Japan, it was a good story I read lately. You educate small children who have no clue about what cash is or, a lot of young people don't have, you know, won't have that much cash left, their credit card, Apple Pay, etc. But we often use things if we're not in the space. I mean, if I were not in the fintech space, I would just not think about it. I would say, okay, I pay anyway, I can pay digitally. But it's good that we point out also the influence, I always post things about a cashless society and the critical things, I point out those things that might be very convenient, but that doesn't mean it's always good. It might be convenient not to buy insurance until you need it, you know?

Valentina: A survey conducted in 2018 says that 54% of respondents trust at least one fintech company more than traditional banks and 29% trust at least one fintech company more than their primary bank. However, when it comes to finances, one would say that people intuitively trust an established bank with decades, maybe 100 years of experience, more than a newly founded tech company. So what exactly is causing this shift?

Spiros: I think it's a generational thing. You know how you grew up. Many of you grew up with the first bank experience, your challenger bank. Then the trust might be bigger. But I believe still the incumbents, the established banks have a lot of trust. I mean, they might not find them as sexy or not sexy. I mean, they already improved the kind of user experience quite a bit. I think they will struggle to do more personalization for customers, you know, because of technology, and legacy systems. But I mean, it's a question of where you put your salary slip, and eventually, I think fintech companies will have more trust eventually, like incumbents. But it's just a question of time. I remember we were over the Internet after the dot-com crash, etc. Some people had faith in it, to buy things on Amazon or whatever. Some people didn't have faith. Now you don't think twice about it. You know, to buy online. And the same thing with challenger banks. I think the trust will just grow because it will be more regulated and more people will have only used their offerings as their prime banking. But it will not come, I think, for many years. Incumbents will, I think, will be as trustworthy or more. You know, at the moment. But I think long term, and we're not talking 100 years, for the next 5 to 10 years, I think that that will shift. Just a natural process. You know, we get more used to it. We don't have scandals. We haven't really had scandals in that space, as I can recall now. And then it becomes like, why not, you know? As long as they're regulated, which they are, as long as your deposits are safe, then it's okay.

Valentina: The rise of fintech and embedded finance technologies ultimately lead to one question How will all of this affect traditional banks?

Spiros: I know there a lot of them will become dumb pipes, basically providing services to them behind the scenes. And it's this cake I see. And the banks will have less and less of this cake. Not today, not tomorrow, but every day.

Valentina: So why is it so difficult for banks to change these legacy systems and provide the same experience as fintech companies?

Spiros: Technology is so old, it works for what it does like for a lot of things. But if you go into extreme personalization, which basically offers certain things to your customers that you like, my God, how do they know that I need this? I’ll give you an example. In China, it's not even new, but I'll just give you a little taste of it. Alipay. You know, people with Alipay, their customers, sometimes the retailers, restaurants whatever, they get loans because they know that this customer will need a quick loan, they know he's paying on time always, they know his revenues. So, you know, all of a sudden they realize, "Oh, maybe he needs more loans", and they provide it to him in no time. So I think this personalization, what I foresee is like, you know, you wear these glasses and you walk around. I mean, we're not there yet. But then they know you're in a store and then everything you can buy in your budget, and in a good way, maybe lights up in your glasses like, "Oh, I can buy this camera". It's in my budget or not? These are things you need a lot of data for, good data.

Spiros: And we're far off. I mean, the big banks, what they're good at, I mean, they improve the apps, obviously, but the normal things, you can't differentiate much anymore because they learn. Obviously, you know, normal things like looking at balance sheets, paying things, etc., you know, they're caught up. But that's the simple thing. The next step is to really do magic. At least give your customer that magical experience, you know? I think that makes you also more transparent. Often people ask me, Alex, about privacy. I say I don't really care. I mean, I care obviously about privacy, but I care more about the benefits of not having privacy. I have Alexa at home - I shouldn't have said that because she might come up, I think - and I ask questions. I don't hope she listens in much, but there's not much listening. But, you know, you get used to it if you get exposed. I ask for the weather or whatever. But some people feel different about that which is fair. You know, and I'm glad some people feel different because otherwise things might be misused.

Valentina: Personalization and seamless digital experience are two things that young generations expect as a standard and with all these financial solutions from fintech companies and even non-financial institutions. Is it possible that traditional banks will slowly start losing B2C relationships?

Spiros: Yes, that's clear. I mean, they will move to... I mean, the disadvantage we have now with all these fintechs, B2C fintechs, is that they are also B2B behind the scene. It becomes like a fashion brand because if you can switch accounts easily, it might also be like a fashion brand. Today you're like Gucci tomorrow or like Nike, you know, or Armani or whatever you name it, Ralph Lauren... You will just switch. You'll feel like, "Oh, I don't like this pink Monzo card. It's not me. I don't like to pull this pink card out of my wallet", you know what I mean? It's like switching loyalty will be harder to get from your customers, you know? But if we get, like, a Spotify playlist, you know, I don't switch and I still have Spotify because I have my playlist and all my songs on it, but I have Tidal as well. And so I'm forced to have parallel things, I mean privileged, in order not to start doing all the work to move my playlists or the songs for my playlists. So banks will become also very smart about this. So I mean, that's one of the most important things, not only providing great services but also finding a way to hold your customers. I mean, in a good way.

Valentina: Embedded finance is growing rapidly in Europe. But in other parts of the world, like the US or China, they are far ahead. Are these countries driving innovation?

Spiros: China is extremely advanced, and in America, certain things are slow, like cheques are still around. But innovation comes from everywhere, and innovation comes more in poor countries. Look at M-Pesa in Africa, where not with a smartphone, but with any phone, you can pay for things or receive money. I think innovation comes from urgency. Innovation doesn't come from a place where there's no need. You know, it can be a personal or country need. So I'm a big believer that you will find great companies everywhere. You know, it's a question of people.

Alex: Yeah. I've worked with the African market, which is considered not as advanced as Europe and so on, but because of the way they work, you can see different start-ups that work with those necessities that the market has in order to bring innovation.

Spiros: Innovation we would never think of, they thought of, and people use it. So a poor country is a much better place for fintechs. There's an there's a need for their services. To give an example in remittances: TransferWise. A great remittance company, they provided very inexpensive ways of people transferring money from Paris to Casablanca, where before there were companies that charged you 10 to 15%. They don't charge at the beginning, they charge over there, they charge to exchange fees and they charge the one who receives it. And with TransferWise and other companies, that was a fraction of that, and that's fintech. And poor people - I come from a working-class family - so don't think I'm detached from this stuff, I'm just privileged now, but they look for things because every dollar counts, and when they send money home, they want to send as much money as possible. And so fintech is... You know, I always tell everyone, I tell over and over the legacy of fintech will not be the cutting edge technology. The legacy of fintech will be helping less privileged people to have a better life. A life that a lot of us take for granted. Like a bank account or credit card, whatever.

Valentina: Could developing countries drive disruptive innovation because of their unique and different needs that developed countries do not have?

Spiros: It's like if you get steak every day, for the people who eat steak, I don't think you think of cooking. Maybe you do. But if you're always full, you always have a nice meal or whatever, steak is not even the best example. If you always have a nice meal, you don't think of cooking. "Somebody else is cooking. It's all done". Otherwise, you become creative. So, therefore, for young kids, I think it would be good to not provide them with everything, you know, to make them stay creative, to be bored. If you have a phone you are never bored. But that means you're not creative because you don't need to be.

Valentina: With all these technologies disrupting the banking and retail industries, what can we expect to see in the next five years?

Spiros: Well, that's a very difficult question, I think. You know, I think I come back to this kitchen thing. I think we have the technology we have. And we will be just more surprised by how those people will mix or bake the cake. It's not the technology anymore I don't think. Maybe augmented reality or those things with the glasses, I spoke about this a lot in the past, and that will enhance it, but at the end of the day, it's just an ingredient. For some kitchens, it might work (I mean, speaking of the kitchen as a business), but for some not. So don't focus on technology, focus more on how to empower or enhance somebody's life. Make it better, cheaper, etc. And the technology is out there, I believe, you know? AI, machine learning, people will always become better and have better data, and more personal information, but it depends on the hands of the person who uses it. And the problem we might have as well is. How much technology can humans handle? How much cutting-edge do you need? I've enjoyed friendships and people more than technology. That doesn't mean I don't need technology, but I think things advance much faster than we can handle it.

Valentina: Are there any current trends that we should expect to become even more popular in the future?

Spiros: You know, now I think what's flattened up is Buy Now Lay later, which was a huge thing, but it's not going to go away, now it will be B2B Buy Now Pay Later, basically, not with consumers. That's a hot trend now. I think we're still in the findings. Yes, even successful fintech companies realize they have to be profitable. So they become more pragmatic, to do things that might be not as sexy, but at least they pay the rent. I think those are the trends. I see that too. It's a consolidation. What's going to happen now is that companies that will go out of business, consolidate, and that's healthy because it's like a good foundation, it's like a rest. We have to take a rest, reflect, and then go again. And it's something people don't do by themselves. But the market forces them and investors force them because if you spend much more money than you have, it's a problem.

Alex: Another interesting concept that I see with this finance like, for example, the Buy Now Pay Later, is that there's more trust given to the consumer, in a way that banks never allowed themselves, to give to the consumer. Do you think that will pose problems for the ones that are allowing it as well?

Spiros: Of course. Absolutely. Because more credit bureaus will take a look at Buy Now Pay Later. You know, outsiders. I think it's a good thing that it exists. It's not wrong, but. Obviously. It's so good for everyone because we've seen in countries like America, that they increasingly Buy Now Pay Later for food. And that's [haha] the thing, you know, it's like an indication, it's like a knife. You can use it to cut vegetables or you can use it to hurt someone. And technology, all these things, none of them were built like Klarna - a great company, great management, really great management, it's inspiring. They've made this business in order to provide customers with solutions to buy things now and pay later. But it doesn't mean that everything fintechs do turns out to be good for consumers. Everything that's overdone needs some correction. If you smoke too much, it might be not good for you, if you smoke sometimes. It's like, you know when I give speeches - I give a lot of speeches - I usually give examples of real-life because people relate to real life much better. For instance, I'll give a good example of this. It's like when I tell companies "You have to make mistakes". You have to allow certain sections of your business to fail sometimes, not completely, hopefully. But and I say if you have children, you let them run and they fall. They hit their knees, and they cry. But nobody would think of not letting their kids run in order to protect them. Because you don't protect them at all since they don't grow like this. And it's the same with companies, they're like kids. They will have to fail sometimes in order to grow.

Valentina: I hope you enjoyed listening to the podcast. If you did, please don't forget to like share, comment, or subscribe to the podcast on your preferred channel. Make sure to follow Spiros on Twitter or connect with him on LinkedIn. Also, this podcast is sponsored by ACF Technologies. Enjoy rapid-fire questions and I will see you next time. Which subject were you the worst at in school?

Spiros: German. I was very bad at dictation because I grew up as an immigrant, and Switzerland has slang and high German is different. So it was very difficult for me, but it corrected with time and the longer you went to school. But it was really bad, really bad. And I was very good at math, so thank God that saved me.

Valentina: What's the best advice you were ever given?

Spiros: Very good question. I wish I had. I can't remember. I make my own advice from my experiences and it's very personal. It's basically from my experiences. Not the good experiences. Yeah. Experience as a period, I define what's good for me. That's why I'm very focused and disciplined. Nobody told me that. I wish somebody did. But I extracted this from my experience and from, call it success, and I apply this focus to everything now, where I can. And when I talk to people, I stay focused. But I haven't got [any advice]. Maybe subconsciously I did, you know. And when it comes to love, in terms of the love your parents give, etc., when you get advice, it's not spoken, but you live it. I think that my parents, my friends and some of my relatives, I think it was not spoken, but it was given. And that's what makes me, me, and much more than my business.

Valentina: Mm-hmm. What did you want to become when you were a child?

Spiros: I say lately, I always wanted to be Spiros Margaris. And now I am. That means I dreamt to be in my position and I've given up on that dream many times, like saying it's not going to happen. But I had this kind of dream to be one of the best in something. But I almost gave it up because that's what it is like. You know? Yeah. I almost gave it up. But life needs some luck, too. And fortune. But I always wanted to be what I am. And, yes. Does that sound cocky? I hope not.

Valentina: No, no, it sounds... It sounds perfect.

Spiros: I was quiet as a child. I watched a lot of movies. I can't say the title. And I was very defined by movies, but old movies and those people. Again, my parents worked - good, great people. But that was just a situation. Those characters defined my view of life. Heh, it's crazy, I think, in some ways. But that's how it was. Very personal, but I think for our audience, we have to be authentic. You have to give something from yourself. Otherwise, people sense it, and that's not good. Okay, next question.

Valentina: And the last question is, and we always ask this, if you could interview anyone, who would that be?

Spiros: I would have loved to interview Steve Jobs, and people probably, young people have forgotten about him, and eventually he will be forgotten.

Valentina: Yeah. That's perfect.

Spiros: You might not have liked him, but I would love to talk to him. He inspired me a lot. I think, yeah, inspired me a lot, but it's just one inspiration. It's one thing in the Spiros cake. My parents, my friends, and my bad experiences, they're all ingredients. And one statement I relate to is when he talked about connecting the dots of your life, things which you did passionately. I was a photographer in my youth. I almost became a photographer. Then I went to business school. But when I do presentations, I always use beautiful pictures. So you're connecting the dots. So what Steve Jobs said when he used calligraphy, he learned Japanese calligraphy. It inspired him to have these nice phones on the Apple computer. Connect the dots. I think so. Your kids - the more things they do, the better. As long as they do it passionately. Somebody told me something beautiful lately. They said, "Why do the moths fly into the light"? They already know they're going to die. Because it's a passion. It's beautiful. I think in life if you have this little bit, it's nice as much as we can. We have responsibilities, but I love passion. I love people that are passionate. And when people when say, I clean shoes and they do it so well and the guy has figured it out and he is so happy. It's like his dignity. I love people with passion and I have so much respect for every profession when I see people who love what they do. You have to keep the human element.