Customer Habits and Banking Biases, with Andrei Calin

Episode 79

Andrei Calin is the Head of Customer Experience at BCR, the second-largest bank in Romania. In a post-COVID era, many banking customers in Romania are preferring face-to-face services after a period of digital oversaturation. How is BCR managing this phenomenon?

In our newest episode, Andrei reveals all. He also shares his passions for consumer psychology and behavior and explores why he thinks this form of research could be the key to elevating CX in banking.

Episode 79


Episode Summary

Digital oversaturation

During lockdown, the online world boomed. The expanding prominence of digital products and services also permeated the banking industry, and many customers have increasingly adopted online banking ever since. However, Andrei suggests that some customers in Romania are experiencing digital oversaturation, in which they feel burnt out from all the online services and would prefer a return to physical interactions. This becomes challenging when customers neglect far more digitally efficient services such as bank transfers and opening new accounts, challenging the bank to create new and innovative strategies for digital expansion and persuasion.

Consumer bias

This desire to return to face-to-face practices can be described as a consumer bias, since people are chasing their preferences of familiarity and comfortability. One of the biases described in Daniel Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow (Andrei's favorite book) is the idea that "what you see is all there is." In other words, customers might prefer physical services because they know what they're like from past experiences, and they would rather return to using those services rather than convert to something new. Some other key biases humans exhibit include:

  • Confirmation bias. People will sometimes justify something based on their own preconceived opinion, rather than observing the facts and evidence because it may not suit their own agenda or view.
  • Law of small numbers. People will sometimes use whatever small set of numbers they have to make falsely informed decisions about a larger set of numbers. In reality, a small sample cannot accurately represent a bigger sample, but it's easy to think so.
  • Loss aversion. Most people are loss averse, which means they are prone to making decisions which would stop or limit them from losing out on something. This is more prominent than people choosing outcomes in which they might gain something instead.

Analysing behaviors

Researching consumer behaviors from a psychological perspective can breed critical data. Information about what your customers think and feel is highly advantageous for constructing meaningful customer journeys that relate to a customer's true experience. Therefore, the value of consumer psychology for banking lies in analysing their behavior, and using the subsequent knowledge to inform your future strategy.


This article summarises podcast episode 79 "Customer Habits and Banking Biases" recorded by CX Insider. For more information, listen to the episode, or contact Andrei on his LinkedIn profile.

Written by Marcell Debreceni



Full Episode Transcript

Valentina: When you started learning about all sorts of these biases, did you suddenly become more aware of what you were doing when you were in these situations?

Andrei: Yes, that's true. So the more you know it, the more you realize when they happen. And I think, you know, touching this, it brings something to my mind that I haven't thought about - why don't we teach customers about their biases? And in order when we're not there, then they can take care of themselves in order to not take those wrong decisions.

Marcell: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of CX Insider. Today we talk to Andrei Calin, Head of Customer Experience at BCR, the Commercial Bank of Romania. In this episode, we dive into the consumer psychology behind banking and explore how it's being utilized in Romania. Now, enjoy the episode, and if you do, why not subscribe to our YouTube channel for access to the best content that CX Insider has to offer? By the way, this podcast is brought to you by ICF Technologies, Global Leader in Customer Experience Management Solutions.

Valentina: Okay. So thank you very much for coming on our podcast. Ah, we usually start with an introduction, so would you mind giving us an intro of who you are and what you do, your hobbies, and your background?

Andrei: Sure. Let me start with the professional part, let's say. So right now I'm leading the customer experience department at BCR bank in Romania. BCR is actually more specific. So BCR is actually a universal bank in Romania. It's the second-largest bank in Romania. When I say I lead the team, the customer experience department, I mean that I create the customer experience strategy and also support my teams in executing it. But with the help of a lot of colleagues within the bank, my background and my career is all related to customer focus. I've been working in customer care. I've been creating customer experience teams and strategies. I've worked also in pre-sales, so also direct communication with customers. Then I had both execution roles and also management roles leading teams. I've been lucky actually. I'm trying to most of the time I'm telling a story that I've been very lucky. Because I have more than 15 years in a customer related job. So this happened I think when I was 21. I had an opportunity. I was lucky enough to work in the US and I was working at a front desk in a hotel. And actually those three months in the front desk, I think I got the customer bug there.

Andrei: There's a very important customer service culture in the US. So I brought this home with me and I stayed with it and I developed it through my professional years. And also personally, I must say that I take my role very seriously. I'm a proud father of almost five-year-old twins. And yeah, and I'm very lucky also to have a super supportive wife, which actually is a funny note, works also in a customer experience role. So our friends are actually laughing and they're saying that we are a customer experience family. And I was thinking that during this, you know, five years since we got the kids, I think my kids heard customer experience around the house. These words expressed, I think, more than any other kids. So it's it's a funny note. Also, I like to jog in the morning. It helps me actually. It helps me bring up some new solutions and ideas for my challenges and that motivates me, actually. And I read online business articles. I also like travelling now a lot with the family. So that's my short introduction. I don't know how short it was.

Valentina: It's nice when you said you have five-year-old twins. I thought you were going to say five kids. And I was like, Oh, well.

Andrei: No, no, not five. Two. It's enough, I think.

Alex: And you have time to run in the morning, huh?

Andrei: Yes, I do now, because actually if you would have asked me like six years ago if I was able to wake up at 6 a.m. and then start running, I would say that you're crazy. I'll never do that. But, you know, I learned that because one of them is a very early riser, so I had to wake up early and that actually was very beneficial for me. And I really appreciate that happening to me because I really enjoy it. Yeah, Yeah, I really enjoy waking up in the morning and I think it's a great time. It's very quiet. You get time for yourself a lot and you know, everything's quiet around them. I really appreciate that.

Marcell: The COVID-19 pandemic has caused a rapid shift towards digitalization across all industries, especially banking. However, there's a considerable number of customers who actively avoid online banking. How has the pandemic affected these behaviors in Romania?

Andrei: Yeah, so of course, that's a lot changed during the last two years. I think everything changed. You feel like everything changed during the last two years. I think also the customer might feel that. So there's a lot of things happening to them from the from different sides, both political as you were seeing now and the pandemic, but also from the. From their suppliers or from their interactions with suppliers. What happened? A lot, of course. And it's obvious, as you were saying, during the pandemic, we had this acceleration in the digital way of servicing or proposing products and servicing to customers. This came actually from the demand from customers. This is what I feel. And actually, businesses have tried to step up and fulfill this demand. So this led to this acceleration in online, digital and so on and so forth. But what I'm seeing now is like most things when you get a lot of something in a very short period of time, at one point you get saturated about it. So even sweets, if you eat a lot in a very short period of time, you tend not to want to eat the next time. So I think this is what is happening, what's happening now, because there was a lot of digitals and a lot of online during those two years, customers are beginning to evaluate these interactions from, I'd like to say from some kind of receive of value and maybe opportunities. So they're asking themselves now because they have not now have options. So they're asking, okay, do I really need this online or digital interaction or do I really find the value in this digital and online interactions, or do I find value in, for example, human interactions? So this is what I feel that it's happening now with the customers and this digital overload that they've been feeling in the past two years.

Andrei: So so now they're looking to see actually where is the value in the interaction. And then we're seeing that in our country also people wanting to have more interactions in-branch with the face to face. But in the meantime, I think they're doing this evaluation and saying, for example, I'm convinced that most of the customers won't go to a branch now or to re-issue their PIN number for the card because this is something that I call hygiene experience. You don't need a person to give you that number. You can always get it online. This means that now they're keeping the interactions, the human interactions, which bring them more value, for example, for more sophisticated products, more complex products. We're. Surely a person can personalize and can advise you better at the moment than an application or an online interaction. Another thing that I'm seeing after the pandemic, and also it's related to the current situation, is customers being more attentive. And also businesses are looking at this right now about what they're paying, the costs that they're paying and the fees, for example, in our case, that they're paying for services and products because of the inflation at the moment, then customers are more are paying more attention to what are they getting for the prices that they're paying.

Andrei: And I'm trying to say that the banking industry must be very careful about that. Why is that? This is because some costs and some prices of financial products are not that easy to understand. So when you position, for example, a cost that it's very low, and I don't think that's applicable only to banking, but to most of the products and services, when you position a front upfront cost or front price very low, then the customer needs to and has to go a bit deeper to see exactly what's the value behind that, that low cost. And if they're not really future costs that can be can, can actually have a bigger impact than a higher cost at the moment. So this focus on low cost and prices goes with a bit of concern from both customers, but also from banking, making sure that they're transparent with the fees and costs for their products. There's an interesting bias or information regarding that. People are very attentive to only the information that they're seeing. There's a bias described in Daniel Kahneman's book Thinking Fast and Slow, which is called What You See is All There Is. And basically, this is what we're doing. Our minds cannot process a lot of information at the same time. So we're believing that what we're seeing is the perfect thing. And then everything that that there is about that and we're not doing a lot of research behind and we really need to be careful about this way of customers reacting to prices.

Marcell: Dealing with the oversaturation of digital services that customers have experienced. Sounds like a big challenge in a way. People desiring physical interaction is a good thing, but when the bank is trying to promote the use of digital, it can also be a hindrance. How can you strike the right balance between the two? And what does Andrei look for in doing so?

Andrei: We as customer experience professionals are looking a lot from a customer perspective. So I might you might hear me saying that from my point of view as a customer because I am also a banking customer's customer. So from my point of view as a customer, I would. And what we're trying to do also is to do exactly what I was saying earlier. To see exactly what's the value of the digital and what's the value of human interactions and try to actually push the value rather than the product. Because I tend to say that digital by itself or online by itself, they don't sell. Customers don't want digital or don't want an app. They just want to fulfill their goals. In our case, financial goals in an efficient value-added way. So we need to see exactly what are they finding, valuing digital and how can we provide actually value in digital and what's the value that we can provide in branches. And there's there's been a lot of discussions not only now, but since the digitalization started in banks that what's going to happen with branches and I think this is what's going to happen. You don't give the customer the pain branch anymore, but you give it digitally.

Andrei: If the customer lost the pin, then they can read it. And the digital, that's the value that the digital brings. Whereas at the moment, and I'm sure that it's not going to be sooner in digital at the moment, if you'd like to, for example, go and invest your money, then it's, it's a lot easier and not easier necessarily, but there's a lot more value in talking to a financial expert. Because it's in one place, let's say, a lot of knowledge in one place rather than you. Investing, not losing, but investing your time in understanding a lot of specific information. So coming back to your question, I think that's what we're trying to do at the moment. Keep what it's important and valuable for customers and why in the digital. And when I say valuable in the digital means fast, easy hygiene things, because the more complex you bring in digital, the more. Harder and more complex will be for customers to go through digital. And we don't want to be hard. We want to be easy. That's the idea. And if you want to have more, more meaningful and more important discussions then you can always go to the branch.

Marcell: Now it seems value can be found in both digital and physical banking experiences, but there are a lot of services that thrive if the customer seeks them out online. For example, processes like bank transfers and opening an account are far more efficient digitally. What does Andrei think is the reason for this reluctance to switch, and what could banks do to encourage the preference for online banking more effectively?

Andrei: If I had the right answer for that, I'm sure that everybody would pay me a lot of money to find it. I don't think actually there is a right answer. So I'm going to give you the answer that we're trying what we are doing actually, not only trying to get those people to use more digital because we believe also that it brings more value to them. But before that, I think it's also it's also important to see the context. So we are still after 30-something years after communism. So we're still a country that has people who are very used to cash, for example. So we still have a lot of cash payments in society. That's one context. And the other thing is that it depends on where we are as a bank, very involved in the financial education of the population. So we're still a bit behind with financial literacy and education in the country. I think these are the reasons why people haven't or we don't have a very high acceptance or willingness to use a lot of digital when it comes to banking. But we know the problems and we are trying to find solutions for them. And what we've been seeing that it's working really well, actually, and I found it funny when I heard about it, is that people are going into the branch and we've taught and we've given the tools to the branch representatives to help the customer with their own device.

Andrei: So what's happening is that a customer comes to the branch, and wants to do something which is actually digital. It can be done in the app or online or digitally, and it's going it's talking to a representative and the representative says, okay, open up your phone. We install this app. If he doesn't have it installed or she doesn't have it installed then look how you can do it online with me here. If the customer has the app, then we're showing, okay, you can do that on your phone, thanks for coming. We can help you with that if you can open up your app and there's the menu here. And this is those two or three clicks that you can do for yourself. So what we're doing in actually where we're at is not using, but we've taught the customer, the bank representative, to help customers use the digital. And I think it's really important with the customer's device. So next time when he's at home, he needs he has to decide if he has the same problem or a similar one.

Andrei: Do I need to go to the branch and have someone show me something or at least I can try it myself here? You know, a couple of times. If it's not working, I'm going back to the branch. So we're doing that. We're actually starting to remove the processes from the Branch, which can be done digitally so customers can come to the branch for digital processes, but there's no option. It can either be done by a representative or by the customers. They're always going to be done by the customer because it's available in the app. So this helped a lot actually to and then you mentioned earlier, if it's a lack of trust, I think there's also this. So customers don't trust necessarily the banks. There's also this in general, but this is less than a couple of years ago. But customers don't yet have this trust in using digital with their finances or not that high of a trust. So we're trying to build that to see that there's nothing wrong. They cannot do something wrong there that can be fixed, for example. So. There's also this empowerment of the customer. I think that's the best solution from my point of view, and I've seen that it's working.

Andrei: Another solution and it's not trying to change customer behavior. And this is also related to what you're mentioning. It's also customer behavior, of course, that we're very it's very hard to change our behaviors. And personally, I think every one of us knows that in kind of a context. So what we're trying to do is not change completely the habits. So it's not like either in the branch or online, it's we're trying to push a bit. So, for example, okay, just open up the app now and this is the first step. We're trying to build steps for the customers and we've also built that, for example, in an onboarding phase, you know, you don't even need to use all the features. Now, I know we have a lot, but this is the most important one, the most used by the customers, by our customers. And this is also related to some social validation that I'm not the only user using your app. There's a lot of customers using that, and this is what they're doing. The first thing that they're selling the app. What I'm trying to say is that we're gently and I think that's important. We're gently trying to make customers use the app. Otherwise, I don't think it's working.

Marcell: Studying how people behave can be the key to unlocking what they truly want and how they feel. And this is closely linked to our biases. But what exactly are consumer biases and how are they relevant to banking?

Andrei: For a couple of years, I've been very passionate about studying this, this phenomenon, this like psychology, human psychology, because actually consumer biases are human decision-making, errors in purchasing context. So we're doing the same errors as consumers, both as humans' decision-making errors. Basically, this is related to the fact that surprise, we're not robots. So we have feelings. We tend to believe most of the time that we are most of the time rational and think deeply. But it's not happening most of the time. So because we can't really separate our emotions for our decisions in the financial industry. It happens the same in the financial products and you know, before thinking about being fully rational and fully data-driven. I think that's only for A.I. and for robots. And what I've seen is also, despite good intentions, actually, and again, you can analyze that and this is how I started, by analyzing myself in normal or other contexts. Despite all our good intentions, we often make less-than-optimal financial choices. And I have some examples for you if you'd like to. This comes in for various reasons most of the time because we have a lot of things on our minds and it's not really the most important thing to understand a financial product.

Andrei: And there's another thing that I'm trying to build inside our organization at the moment is that customers have actually goals and needs and desires. They don't actually and they want to fulfill them with different solutions. They don't actually start from thinking, they don't start thinking from a financial product to the goal, but rather the goal. And then they find that some of the solutions are related to financial products. And yes, I have some examples of how we're not very rational when we're doing decisions. The best ones are related to savings. And I think it's they're very common to most of us. And for example, it's a bias that people are it's called present bias or they prioritize today, over tomorrow. And what this means is that because we do that sometimes we prioritize today's needs and desires over tomorrow's. And this means that we will, although we know that tomorrow is better to save for tomorrow, we don't do that. And that's because it seems that's an F word. And most of the time it's because we have difficulty visualizing the future. There's been tests and then studies that when you show your picture, when a bank, for example, shows a picture of yourself of retirement, the chances are for you to save more. For a long time, there's been studies doing that.

Andrei: So the idea that we can't really visualize all the time for a long time investment, it's not doing us very well. And there's another thing that we prefer, of course, that the satisfaction at the moment rather than the future savings, even though we know that it's better for us to save for the future. Another thing or another product that we're we're looking at to see how customers are influenced by this, these biases and these errors is insurance. We also have insurances that we sell also related to loans. So I think there's an interesting we really had this I don't call it an experiment because we put it in production. So it was really interesting because only there's a position or we sell an insurance an income insurance policy when you get a loan digitally fully digital. So what we've done is and when you get this insurance, then you get also a discount on the interest rate of the loan. So we've been customers haven't been that willing to take this insurance, although it's very important, especially for these days, this income protection insurance. So what we've been trying is actually changing the way the customer takes the decision, the buttons and we said instead of I item want this insurance, then we change it to I don't want this insurance and I'm okay to lose that 0.5% of the interest.

Andrei: We actually changed only the text. And we've been doing that because we know that people are loss averse. So they hate losing an amount. They hate losing an amount rather than they're happy winning or getting the same amount. So basically, we try to show them that they're losing this 0.5, I don't know, 1%, whatever it is that they're they can get if they're not getting this insurance. And actually, we've seen increases like from with I think let me just calculate from my mind. But it was like 20, 30% increase in the total acceptance of taking that insurance. And this was a great use case internally to show that actually this focus on behavioral science and understanding how customers make decisions is good and especially in financial institutions it's good if you're trying again but this is really important if you're trying to improve the customer's well-being and financial help. So with the product. So if this is the objective, then I think it's really important to have this skill in the organization because these very small changes can have a huge impact on customers' well-being in the end. So we have more customers who are protecting against any problems that they have with their salaries.

Marcell: So the study of consumer behavior can truly help banks understand the people they serve and therefore co-create more value. However, most banks do not effectively incorporate the research of consumer psychology, at least as well as they could. How does Andrei think this situation might be improved?

Andrei: Whenever I'm passionate about it, I'm trying to convince others that it's a good thing, and it really works when you're passionate about it because it's easier to convince people. And first of all, I really think this is working and we have the proof now internally with this small test that we've done, which is working. And we're actually looking at other types of convincing people to do things that are financially healthy for them. But regarding how I see this working in or more used in the customer experience domain or honestly if you ask me, I don't even want to be used in customer experience necessarily. I want to be used more when you build products and services and I want to be to do good for your customers. I think this is important. Why I think it's it's related to the customer experience is for first of all and I was saying earlier that in general customers want to fulfill their goals. So customer experience is actually about improving the customer's journeys to fulfill their goals. So if your goal is to save more then my role as a customer experience expert, is to design your journey to be as easy or as fast or as seamless for you to save more and to fulfill your goals with the savings. So actually, this is what it does using behavioral economics and then studies in customer experience can help us help customers fulfill their financial goals. And yes, and I also think that but I maybe I'm here, I'm biased, but that in the world of financial services employing this discipline, it has a lot of potential and a lot of impacts because we're talking about customers, future customers, well being in terms of financial importance.

Andrei: So I think this is really important, especially in banks and financial institutions. There's another thing when I think why I think banks it's important is that financial products are unattractive, complex and sometimes difficult to purchase. So in order to and although most of the products, most of the products are doing good to customers because they're fulfilling their goals and if they're using it correctly, then they have that it's a good impact. In short, you know, the products are boring, you know, and therefore customers, they take shortcuts, mental shortcuts to get rid of this. So I'll go fast. I'll I don't know how to evaluate the products. I don't understand them. So I'm very proud of making wrong decisions. That's why it's important to reduce these situations where customers take wrong decisions with their financial products. And yes, as a way to embed the skills. If you're working in an agile environment, then you can do it as a skill in any squad or any tribe or whatever you're organized. Whenever you build something for the customers, it can be even communication. Then someone with this skill should be there to give a look and say, okay, what? What are we trying to do? Are we trying to convince the customer to try and make it read or you're trying to do an action? What are we trying to do with this product service or communication? And starting with that, look for how you can actually fulfill your goal with that in order to help the customer fulfill their goals.

Valentina: I wanted to ask a question regarding what you were saying before about the biases when you started learning about all sorts of these biases. Did you suddenly become more aware of what you were doing when you were in these situations?

Andrei: Yes, that's true. So the more you know it, the more you realize when they happen. And I think, you know, touching this, it brings something to my mind that I haven't thought about - why don't we teach customers about their biases? And in order when we're not there, then they can take care of themselves in order to not take those wrong decisions. So yeah, but definitely whenever you learn something, especially that you see for yourself, you started to see them when you're doing it, and that's the first step in correcting, identifying and then of course taking measures if you'd like to. Otherwise, I'm not saying you should change anything, you change everything. But sometimes we know we are wrong, but we still do it. Yeah. I've said so much. I haven't eaten for two weeks. Something sweet. I know this is wrong, but I'm still going to do it. Yeah.

Alex: Or smoke or things like smoking or things like that.

Andrei: We always do things that we do the same with finances. I've been saving it while I haven't been spending big. I haven't been a big spender in the past. And that's also biased, by the way, I haven't been spending for the last two weeks or I've been very, very I've been paying a lot of attention to my spending. Okay. I really like this pair of shoes. You know, that's it.

Marcell: Consumer research creates data, and data analysis leads to greater understanding. Therefore, what role can data play in improving customer experiences in banking specifically and how?

Andrei: I think data is crucial to customer experience. If there was no data, there was no customer experience. And because why? Why? Obviously, it's because you don't know what to improve. Actually, customer experience is again, this way of looking at the customer journey and trying to make it better for the customers to fulfill their goals. If you don't know how that journey is, what's the perception of the customer on that journey? Then you don't know what to improve. What to manage if you don't have data. And there are two ways, I guess, in which we look at data. So there's data that shows us the current situation. So like I was saying, you know, we look at the customer's perception through different ways, surveying and asking them interviews. We look at customer behaviour that shows the current situation, their spending, and what channels they use. So we're looking at data to show us what's happening, what's the status, what's the current was, as is what we're calling it, and this guides us. This gives us some information on where exactly to take action. Why I think it's really important to understand where to take action because customer experience is the under-budgeted zone or area within companies in general. So this means that we don't have all the budget in the world. This means, of course, that we have to prioritize.

Andrei: And there that's where data can also help you, help you prioritize the actions that you take for the customers. I like to say that I don't want to improve the experience for the customers. I just want to improve the touchpoints or the interactions where we tell the customers that we bring the most value. What I'm trying to say is then we're coming back to the value of closing the circle. So what I'm trying to say is that if we're saying that we're we want customers to use to have a great digital experience, that this is where I'll invest my resources in customer experience or most of my resources. I don't want to have the best ATM experience. I just want their ATM experience to be good enough, but I want their digital experience to be the best. So that's what I'm trying to say. With prioritizing in customer experience, I think you should prioritize based on data and your brand, your brand promises. I like, say, brand experiences. You should have brand experience, otherwise, you wouldn't differentiate from other competitors. So this is how data can help us. First of all, assess the situation from both data perspectives per customer for customer perceived weight and also for where to focus your actions.

Andrei: Generally, I think like listening, hearing what you're saying all of this and like your focus when it comes to data and how to utilize it. When I've been reading about banks and customer expectations, there's a common theme that there is a big difference between what banks and banking executives are hoping and looking to deliver in the next couple of years and what customers actually expect. And why do you think it is that on a global level when it comes to the banking industry in general?

Andrei: I think also from the delivery point of view, but also from the expectations, I've been reading also some some some articles, some studies saying that you know, we the board believe that they offer a great experience, whereas the perception of customers is very low when it comes to experience. I think that's because there is a disconnection between the board, the sea level and the customer. So there's no direct connection there. So there's a lot of layers from the customer to the board. That's why the perception is different. You know, I'm seeing it in an everyday situation, not necessarily in banking. Think about it. If you were a board member, would you or would you have the same experience as a regular customer with your products and services? Not. Not really. Only if you'd like to. But sometimes, if you need something, you know who to call. To solve your problem. If you like a product, you don't go to the branch or you don't open the app, or maybe you open the app, but maybe you ask someone from your organization to help you with that product. So I think that's where the disconnection happens because most of the senior leaders are not sometimes going into the customer real customer's shoes and they don't build.

Andrei: That effective way of understanding the customer's experience as a customer experience representative, as a front-line representative. So they know better. Actually, they know better than us. The ones that know better, the customers and their perception, and their experience are the ones that are in direct contact with the customers. That's the ones that they know a lot better. And why is because, you know, we have our surveys and we ask customers, but there's a different thing when you see when you observe when you interact with the customer and when you ask them, there's a different insight that you get when you interact with them and when you ask them about that. So they already have a perception they answer in different. Different biases. So, yes. So I think that that's the problem because there is no direct connection frequently. I'm not saying that the CEOs should stand in the front line all the time, but there should be a lot more direct connection with customers or raw data, rather. So listening to KOLs and things like that.

Alex: Yeah, I think that was my question. Calling in raw data, I think the answer is yes. It's like. The front line is the most difficult place to collect data at the same time.

Andrei: Yes. And to quantify.

Alex: Then, put it in a depository and actually analyze it.

Andrei: Yes, it's true. Because it's in their head and in their heart. It's not in the system.

Marcell: Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed the episode. Why not subscribe to our YouTube channel for access to full-length videos, clips of chapters, and also YouTube shorts for our best moments? If you want to join our growing community of thought leaders, head over to LinkedIn and follow us at CX Insider Podcast to stay updated. Thanks again and I'll see you in two weeks. But for now, enjoy our rapid-fire questions. By the way, this podcast has been brought to you by ACF Technologies Global Leaders in Customer Experience Management Solutions.

Valentina: What is your favourite psychology book?

Andrei: Definitely Thinking Fast and Slow.

Valentina: Would you ever live anywhere besides where you live now?

Andrei: Yes, I really love Amsterdam. We have a lot of friends there and also I like now Vienna.

Valentina: Oh, I love Vienna. It's my favorite city in Europe.

Andrei: Yes. For the family part, let's say until the kids are 18, if you ask me. After that, I would go to more exotic places like, I don't know, Bali, Indonesia.

Valentina: What scares you?

Andrei: Uh, what scares me? Well, I think sometimes myself. Honestly?

Valentina: Interesting answer.

Andrei: Yes.

Valentina: What is the weirdest thing you've ever eaten?

Andrei: Weirdest. Unfortunately. Most. I have a saying that if someone ate that before me, then it's okay. So it's hard for me to remember something, but I honestly think I've eaten some cockroaches. At one point that one event, I remember. But again, I try everything, actually. If someone did before me and didn't have a problem, I'll eat it.

Valentina: Okay. And we always ask this question. If you could interview anyone, who would that be?

Andrei: I think Steve Jobs, honestly, I know he'd say, you know, it's a bastard. Everybody gives that. But I know it's really inspiring for me in this customer experience world that I'm living in.

Valentina: Mm-hmm. Cool. And my last question, actually, it's a bit of a personal question, if you could recommend it to someone who is interested in studying consumer behavior and consumer psychology, where would you recommend them to start?

Andrei: I think online articles, I think they're great and free for people to start looking at online articles. Following on LinkedIn, I've discovered that there is a lot I didn't even know until I studied a bit more. There's a lot of people who only think that you can follow the content there, it's a lot easier to digest, at least at the beginning. So maybe LinkedIn first and some online articles and then go to books.

Valentina: Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Andrei: Thank you. Also.